过去10余年间，巴西陷入了发展困境，过去依赖的出口农产品等初级资源经济模式难以带动巴西经济更上一层楼。

对此，南方中心董事，巴西前教育部长、前参议员克里斯托万·布阿尔克（Cristovam Buarque）在接受观察者网专访时认为，教育是巴西实现进一步发展的基石。他还就教育如何赋能发展，中巴如何进一步拓展双边与金砖合作，各国如何在新的多极世界中保持和睦、促进合作表达了自己的看法。

观察者网记者采访科雷亚

以下为采访实录：

【采访、翻译/观察者网 李泽西】

中国成功教育出爱国的人民

观察者网：您一直主张用教育解决巴西中长期的各项问题。可否简单介绍一下您的设想？

布阿尔克：很高兴接受这次采访，回答这个问题。很少有人向我提出类似的问题，但我认为教育是非常重要的。数十年来，我们强调的是经济，是生产，但一直忘了教育才是进步的核心推动力。我们需要教育，不仅是专业教育，还包括全民基础教育。教育可以提高经济效率，同等质量的教育水平也能帮助社会。教育是经济的基础，也是社会的基础。我们需要教育来提高产量，并更均匀地分配财富。这是我在巴西政治生涯中一直强调的问题。

观察者网：可否介绍一下巴西当前教育面临的难题？

布阿尔克：巴西教育现在有两个主要的目标：

争取在国际学生能力评估（PISA）中名列前茅（据最近公布的2018年数据，中国北京、上海、江苏和浙江位列全球第一，巴西则落后于世界平均水平），以及实现教育平等，让贫困儿童在学校与富裕儿童享有同等质量的教育。

2018年，PISA测试平均成绩地图，巴西名次较为靠后

为了实现这两个目标，我们面临的挑战是如何将6000个以市为单位的教育系统，转变为一个国家系统。

观察者网：您认为您的设想也适用于其他国家吗？教育可以解决哪些当下的重大问题？

布阿尔克：我在巴西强调的，对全世界任何国家都适用。不少过去非常落后的国家通过教育发展了起来：芬兰是一个例子，韩国是另一个例子。中国也通过教育实现了高质量经济发展，目前只有部分地区尚未完全发展起来。像中国和巴西这样的大国还无法“一步登天”。对于巴西来说，我们有不少学习的榜样，中国就是一个。

观察者网：如何向中国学习？

布阿尔克：不同于巴西以市为单位的教育系统，中国基础教育系统是在国家层面构建的。中国儿童接受的教育使他成为一个中国人，而巴西儿童接受的教育使他成为某某市的市民，乃至于彻底个人主义的人。

中国儿童的成长过程中充满了对中国历史和对祖先的尊重，并形成了社会风气，而巴西的系统则非常注重个人和当下。我们也应该向中国学习，让父母和祖父母更多参与对孩子的照顾和教育中，巴西的教育目前完全由教师和学校负责。

巴西与中国都要逐步适应新的多极世界

观察者网：再说回两国关系。中国和巴西是重要的贸易伙伴；巴西的农产品和原材料出口，与中国的机械和电气设备出口相辅相成。在卢拉总统今年访华期间，两国还签署了一些关于能源、碳信用、5G网络、融资和去美元化的合作协议。您认为未来合作中最有前景的领域是什么？双方合作对巴西实现经济多元化及产业升级有多大意义？

布阿尔克：对巴西来说，中国是其主要的贸易伙伴，比美国和阿根廷重要得多。但是，我们一直只做经济贸易，需要有更多方面的来往。例如，我们的大学之间可以合作，建立留学项目，让巴西学生和中国学生一起学习，让巴西教师和中国教师一起授课，把中国人迎来巴西，把巴西人派往中国。多年来，巴西学生一直在赴美欧学习，其中有大额奖学金，我们应该为巴西和中国之间的留学生设立更多的奖学金。

我们还需要科学机构之间的合作。巴西在健康领域非常突出，应该与中国的科学家紧密合作。还有艺术文化方面，欢迎更多的中国艺术家来巴西，同时把我们的艺术家派到中国。我们还需要翻译更多中国作家的书，并将巴西作家的作品翻译成中文。

可以看出，我们有十分广阔的合作前景，不应该安于只做贸易。在贸易方面，我们已经有很良好的合作了，现在应该推进更多方面的合作。

最后，我认为巴西应该学习中国的政治模式。我不单是指国家机构层面的政治，还包括政府的运行。中国精通如何落实一个项目，巴西会创立项目，但在执行期间往往遇到很大的困难，中国可以指导我们如何更好执行项目。我们有很多东西可以向中国学习，我认为两国合作对中国也有好处。

布阿尔克资料图（图源：巴西参议院）

观察者网：与此同时，巴西与美国长期以来有着防务合作协议。在您看来，巴西应该如何平衡与中美的关系？

布阿尔克：这是未来我们需要做的，我们过去是在一个单极、只有一个超级大国的世界里，有的主要是双边关系经验。

今天，令人高兴的是，美国不再是国际地缘政治的中心，中国和欧洲都出现在国际舞台中心。我们必须学会如何发展其他类型的关系。

到目前为止，国际政治、对外政策都是围绕单极世界而制定的。现在我们必须学会先看世界、再看国家。我过去曾经说，外交诞生时，世界是由一群国家所组成的。今天，我认为外交已发展成每个国家都是世界的一个组成部分。这需要外交官、政治家在处理与其他国家的合作和关系时采用不同的思维模式。巴西和中国可以一起学习，共同提高。

观察者网：中国和巴西都是金砖国家的重要成员。双方如何在这个框架下努力加强合作？作为两个都专注于促进发展中国家利益的机构，金砖国家和南方中心的工作应该如何协调与互联？

布阿尔克：我在董事会提议，南方中心应该邀请金砖国家新开发银行的新行长、巴西政治家迪尔玛·罗塞夫（Dilma Rousseff）来与我们会面，我们应该参与金砖国家新开发银行的工作。南方中心有世界南方的专业知识；我们可以为金砖国家新开发银行提供这些信息。这对于中国和巴西的合作来说也是非常良好的局面：金砖国家新开发银行的行长是巴西人，而它的总部又坐落在中国的上海。

4月13日，新开发银行行长迪尔玛·罗塞夫就任（图源：AFP）

让我们利用好这一合作的机缘，加强金砖国家新开发银行的作用。当然，我认为我们要做更多的努力，比如应该吸引更多国家加入金砖。更多国家应该参与新开发银行的工作，因为它对推动多极世界的新地缘政治格局非常重要，这将改变世界的历程。

观察者网：俄乌冲突呢？对巴西产生了什么影响？巴西人怎么看中国的十二点和平计划以及调停冲突提议？

布阿尔克：对此，我与卢拉政府立场有点不同，我认为巴西不应该参与这场冲突。

有两种参与冲突的方式：第一种是军事上的参与，而卢拉总统明确表示，巴西不会在军事上参与这场冲突。这很好。

但我还认为，巴西甚至不应该参与和谈。俄罗斯和乌克兰两国的文学、宗教、语言和历史如此相似，以至于我认为到某个时刻，俄罗斯内部的力量会向政府施压，比如施压普京先生或其他人，而乌克兰内部势力也会施压乌克兰，这两股内部势力将自动推动双方和谈。当然，如果一些国家和地区，特别是中国和欧洲，可以在此发挥作用，那也是可以的。

2019年12月，普京与泽连斯基最近的一次会面（图源：AP）

就卢拉而言，我一直认为他在全球舞台上可以扮演其他角色。卢拉应该发表一个与俄乌冲突无关的地球声明，提出如何实现其他三个方面的和平：社会和平，与贫困作斗争；生态和平，为可持续发展而战；移民和平，想办法避免数百万人被迫从本国逃往另一个国家，且经常找不到可落脚的新家。

我认为，卢拉是世界上最适合发布这样的全球性声明的人。你们或许会问，为什么不是由中国发布？中国是如此的特别，如此强大，以至于也许中国不是最适当的发起方。中国有很强大的实力，而巴西有可观的软实力，要实现这三方面的和平，更需要软实力。

巴西内政需要借鉴“中庸之道”

观察者网：巴西经济在2010年代经历了相当困难的十年，导致国内民众不满情绪升温。您认为这背后的原因是什么，巴西如何才能克服挑战？

布阿尔克：我认为，巴西这么富裕的国家出现这种情况的主要原因是缺乏教育，几个世纪以来许多巴西人民都没有受过教育。教育的缺乏导致国家分裂、社会分裂，巴西几乎有一个族群隔离制度——这有别于南非那样的种族隔离制度，因为巴西大多数人是混血，虽有一些偏见和种族主义，但没有种族隔离。

巴西有的是社会族群隔离，这是巴西分裂的主要原因，根据谁有钱、谁没钱分割社会，而有没有钱取决于有没有教育。除此之外，缺乏教育也导致政治家们找不出巴西的前进出路。

当然，巴西还需要更好的法律，打击腐败。巴西需要长远性思维，而我们一向较为短视，这是一个我们必须克服的问题。

观察者网：如何克服？

布阿尔克：我们有两个策略。长期战略是教育；短期内，我们应该搭建沟通的桥梁。卢拉一直强调，要想结束俄乌冲突，我们只需要把普京和泽伦斯基放在同一张谈判桌上。我认为，卢拉应该与反对派做同样的事情，甚至与自己讨厌的人一起沟通、交谈，双方找出一个中间的方案，不完全是卢拉和他的劳工党的方案。

当然，我也希望博索纳罗等人永远不会回归政府，但我们必须沟通。克服巴西所面临问题的方式是不停的沟通，保持谦虚的态度，毕竟没人有完美的方案。所以，我们应该进行类似卢拉提议普京和泽伦斯基那样开展谈判和沟通。

巴西前总统博索纳罗资料图（图源：路透社）

观察者网：这听起来有点类似于中国传统哲学的一些理念，即努力求同存异，走中庸之道，努力包容各方的观点。

布阿克：是的，中国对这种对话有着上千年的历史经验。也许我们可以从孔子那里寻找答案，对话沟通、中庸之道是中国的传统。巴西需要学习中国。

观察者网：如何实现您提到的三个方面和平？我们只需对话，还是也需要其他方面的努力？

布阿尔克：确实需要其他方面的努力，但主要还是在联合国的演讲，以及各种场合的对话。这三方面中，社会和平和移民和平是密切相关的。叙利亚难民危机源于内战，但全球大多数移民源于贫穷和社会因素，例如中美洲。如果我们解决了贫困问题，我们就能解决移民问题，这两个是相辅相成的。

5月，大量移民出现在美墨边境（图源：路透社）

至于生态和平，我们还需要某种方式的思想革命，结束以国民生产总值来衡量文明的做法。不，文明远不止于生产，我们需要做的包括更敬畏自然、尊重生态，发展更可持续性的社会。生态和平比其他两个和平更难，对人类来说也更紧迫。社会和移民和平对穷人和移民来说更加紧迫，但是生态对全人类整体来说更重要。

观察者网：虽然中国和巴西之间的关系基本没有受巴西国内政治太大的影响，但中国和其他国家都对2022年巴西大选后发生的暴力感到担忧。鉴于巴西的经济状况持续低迷，国际社会是否应该关注巴西的政治稳定？

布阿尔克：任何国家都应该对此有点担心，巴西应尤为担心，但局势并不危险。我们必须保持密切关注，毕竟民主在哪里都是非常脆弱的，在巴西或许更为如此。但无论如何，我们当下没有危险。巴西的民主是稳定的，至少在未来很多年内将保持如此。

观察者网：国际上最近关于“脱钩”和“对抗”的讨论越来越多，关键似乎在于美国希望强推西方民主制度，而中国则认为发展才是最重要的民主权利。您如何看待双方的说法？

布阿尔克：非常感谢这个问题，我想就此更深入的讨论。从一个富国、强国的角度来看，美国是一个成功的案例，但从可持续性和共同富裕的角度来看，美国并非如此。他们有很多的歧视和排斥现象，特别在种族方面：黑人生活水平比白人差，不过美国现在也有很多穷困的白人。

美国过去实现了短期的成功，但是他们不应该、也没有理由成为大家永远效仿的榜样。这是一种傲慢的态度，也是一个错误，一个试图强加给他国民主制度和美国生活方式的错误。美国的生活方式不能成为全人类未来的生活方式，我们需要其他的生活方式。

美国旧金山街头（图源：彼得·乔治·彼得森基金会）

民主是美国等国成功的重要因素，但是每个国家都必须寻找自己实现民主的方式。我这样说，是因为民主本质上是一种与人民一起治理国家的制度。这并不要求有国会，有多党制，有选举，将选民视为国王，不一定。

我在巴西受到了很多批评，因为我写了一本书，提出了“中国民主模式”。有些巴西人不乐意听到我这么说，许多朋友也反对我的这种表述。但我认为中国有一种民主的模式，虽然这可能不是巴西应该采用的方式，巴西必须找到一个新的模式，但不一定是美国、法国或日本的模式，何况他们之间的民主模式也大相庭径。美国必须停止认为它采用的民主制度是唯一的模式，世界上还有其他的民主制度，而中国正在努力寻找具有自己特色的制度。

英文原文：

Guancha: In politics, you have consistently advocated for the importance of education in solving Brazil's medium and long term problems. Could you briefly describe your proposal?

Cristovam Buarque:First of all, it's a pleasure to be here, and wonderful to receive this question. Many times, they don't put this question to me. But I think it's very important to talk about that.

For many years, decades, we have been saying to the people, to the world, that the most important thing is the economy, is production. We have been forgetting that education is the main vector of progress. We need education, and not just professional education, but basic education, the education of the whole population. We need that, first of all to give efficiency to the economic process, and we need schools to have the same quality of education, in order to achieve a better social function. Education is basic to the economy and is basic to society. We need education to produce more and we need education to distribute production better. This is what I have been discussing in Brazil during my whole career as a politician.

Guancha: Could you describe the specific challenges facing Brazilian education system?

Cristovam Buarque:The specific challenge facing Brazilian educational system is to lead with two targets: to be among the betters in the PISA international evaluation, and to have educational social equality, such that poor children experience the same quality of schooling as rich children. To fulfill these two purposes, the challenge is to move from 6000 municipal systems to one national system.

Guancha: Do you think the same applies broadly to other countries as well? What are some key challenges that education can solve?

Cristovam Buarque: I think that what I've been saying to Brazil, it's worthwhile to the whole world, to any country, but many other countries have done that already. We have examples of countries that were very backwards some years ago, that grew up thanks to education: Finland is an example, South Korea is another example. Some cities in China are doing that, not the whole country yet, but China is doing what I recommend to Brazil, to start revolution in education per city. It's impossible to make the revolution spread through a country as big as China and Brazil. I think that we have examples that we should follow, and China is one.

Guancha: How should Brazil learn from China’s educational system?

Cristovam Buarque: We can learn from China’s national framework to basic education, which is different from our municipal system. A Chinese child is educated as Chinese, while a Brazilian child is educated as a municipal and individualistic person. The respect for Chinese history and heritage are present in the education of Chinese children and forms the Chinese ethos, while the Brazilian system is very much oriented to the individual and the present. We should also learn from the involvement of parents and greatparents in the care and education of Chinese children. Brazil leaves the education under total responsibility of teachers and school.

Guancha: China and Brazil are important trading partners, with Brazil's export of agricultural and raw materials complementing China's exports of machinery and electrical equipment. During president Lula's recent visit to China, the two countries also signed a number of agreements on cooperation in energy, carbon credits, 5G network, financing and de-dollarization. What do you think is the most fruitful area for future cooperation? And how significant would cooperation between the two be for Brazil's efforts to diversify its economy beyond commodities?

Cristovam Buarque: Brazil and China are today very tied. At least from the Brazilian point of view, China is the main partner in trading, a lot more important than, for example, United States and Argentina, the other two great partners. But we have been just trading in goods. We need more. For example, we need cooperation between our universities. We have to have programs, put together our students and Chinese students, our teachers and China's teachers, to bring Chinese to Brazil, to send Brazilians to China. For many years, we have been looking to United States and Europe to study with a lot of scholarship. Let's have more scholarships between Brazil and China.

We need cooperation also between scientific institutions. We have a very important group, for example, in the health system, health technology. We need to work closely with the Chinese scientists. We need cooperation in arts and culture, which would be very good. We need to bring to Brazil more artists from China and to send to China our artists. We need to translate more books from Chinese authors and to translate into Mandarin the work of Brazilian authors.

We have a world ahead to cooperate. Let's not stop and do trade only. On trade, we already have good cooperation. Now we need to improve that to other sectors.

And finally, I think that we have to learn from China, the way China does politics. I'm not talking politics in this sense of congress. I'm talking also in the sense of government: China knows how to do projects. Brazil knows how to make the project but have terrible difficulty in executing the project. China can teach us how to execute our project. We have a lot to learn with China. And I think the cooperation would be good also to China.

Guancha: At the same time, Brazil has long standing security agreements with the US. In your opinion, how should Brazil balance relations with China and the US, which are both important partners to Brazil?

Cristovam Buarque: That would be an exercise in the future. We have to learn how to cooperate in this world, because we had the experience of mainly bilateral relationships, and a world with one pole, with one superpower.

Today, happily, the United States is no more the center of international geopolitics, we have China, we have Europe. We have to learn how to develop other kinds of relations. But I have been saying something more than that. I think that even China has to learn.

Up to now, international diplomacy, politics and external policy were made regarding one country in the whole world. I think that now we have to learn to see the world before the country. I used to say that diplomacy was made to the time when the world was a group of countries. Today, I say that each country is a piece of the world. This require a different mindset for the diplomats, for politicians engaged in cooperation and relations with the other countries. Brazil and China can learn together and teach one another.

Guancha: China and Brazil are both key members of BRICS. How can both work to increase cooperation under this framework? Also, as two institutions both focused on promoting the interests of developing countries, how should the work of BRICS and the South Centre intersect and interact?

Cristovam Buarque: I proposed yesterday that the South Centre should invite the new president of BRICS bank, our Brazilian politician Dilma Rousseff, to come to South Centre to meet with us. We have to be inside the BRICS bank. I said that we have expertise, we have knowledge of the South. Let's make that available to the BRICS bank. Regarding China and Brazil, we have something very good: we have a Brazilian president of BRICS bank, and the BRICS bank is in Shanghai, China.

Let's put together this cooperation, this coincidence, and let's use the BRICS bank more. Personally, I think that we have to discuss a lot before that. I think that we should at least bring some other countries to BRICS and to BRICS bank. I think there are other countries that should be part of this experience, an experience that would change the world because it would be very important to this idea of a new geopolitics of multiple poles. BRICS is very important to this.

Guancha: What has been the effect of the war in Ukraine or Brazil, and how has China's 12 point peace plan and proposed conflict mediation been received in Brazil?

Cristovam Buarque: This is something on which I have a different position as the Brazilian government today. I think that Brazil should not be involved in this conflict. There’s two ways to be involved. In the first way, Brazil is not: President Lula is quite clear, he’s not involved as a party militarily with one of the countries. This is OK.

But I have another position, no involvement even in the peace talks, because I think that Russia and Ukraine, they look so much like each other, in terms of literature, religion, language, history, that I think they will find that, in a certain moment, the internal forces in Russia and Ukraine will pressure their governments to come together and find the peace. Sure, if some countries, especially China and Europe, can help that, it would be okay.

But in the case of Lula, I have been saying that he has another role in the world. Lula should put a planetary statement to propose ways to come to three other peaces, different from the war between Russia and Ukraine: social peace, fighting against poverty; ecological peace, fighting for sustainable development; and migration peace, find a way to avoid millions of the people being forced to move from their country to another country, and some or most of the time not able find a new home. First of all, migrants might not arrive at the new country. Second, they might arrive but can not come in, because at the border they are stopped. And third, they will enter the new country, but will not be accepted legally.

Lula, I think, is the best man the world to produce a planetary statement. You might ask, but why not China? China is so special and so great and so big that perhaps it will not have this voice into the world: China is a hard power, Brazil can be a soft power, and we need soft power. For these 3 peaces, we need more soft power than hard power.

Guancha: Brazil's economy has experienced a rather difficult decade in the 2010s, which has Led to rising domestic discontent and trouble. What do you think are the reasons behind this? How come Brazil overcome these challenges?

Cristovam Buarque: I think that the main reason why we’re in this situation with so rich a country is the lack of education, centuries without education for our people. The lack of education makes a country divided, socially divided. The main reason for the division of Brazil, we have to say Brazil is almost an Apartheid system, not racial apartheid as in South Africa since most of us are mixed; while there is some prejudice, some racism, but not racial apartheid.

But we do have a social apartheid, based on who has money, and who has no money. And having or not having money depends on having or not having education. And beside that, the lack of education is behind the fact that the politicians do not find a way to Brazil. We need education.

Beside that, we need better laws, to avoid corruption, and we need long term planning to our purpose. Brazil is very short term oriented. And this is a problem that we have to overcome.

Guancha: How would you overcome?

Cristovam Buarque: We have two strategies. In the long term, improved education is key. And in the short term, let's get together. Lula has been saying that to finish the Ukrainian war, we just have to put Putin and Zelensky on the same table. I think that in Brazil, he should do the same with the opposition, even the bad guys, sitting together to discuss, to talk and to find a middle way.

It will not to be Lula's way, Lula's party’s way, and I hope we will never have the Bolsonaro people in government again, but we have to talk. The answer to your question is talk, talk, talk, with modesty. No one knows exactly what to do. So, let's discuss. Let's having conversations, as Lula proposed between Putin and Zelensky.

Guancha: This sounds kind of similar to what China has been proposing based on traditional Chinese philosophy, of trying to find common ground and trying to come together, include all views and not just holding some as superior to others.

Cristovam Buarque: Yes, China has a long history of this kind of conversation to find a way forwards. Perhaps we can go back to Confucius to find that. It is a tradition in China to talk, to discuss, to find the middle way. We need to learn from the Chinese.

Guancha: Going back to the three peaces you talked about, is the way to achieve that just through dialogue or does it also require acquire something else?

Cristovam Buarque:Other things, but especially speeches at the United Nations, conversation everywhere. Now, two of these three peaces, they come together. Social peace will bring migration peace. If you look to Syria, for example, the migration was because of the civil war, but usually in the world, migration is due to poverty, i.e. social reasons. This is the case of central America, for example. Then these two peaces, they come together: if we solve poverty, we solve migration.

For ecological peace, we need more than that. We need, in a certain way, a cultural revolution, a mind revolution, to abolish the way that gross national product is used as the indicator of civilization. No, civilization is a lot more than production. And one of the things we need a lot more of is the respect of nature, respect of ecology. It means we need sustainability. This peace is more difficult than the other two, and more urgent for humankind; social and migration peace is more urgent to poor people, to migrants, but ecology peace is more important than any other to humankind.

Guancha: While relations between China and Brazil have mostly been unaffected by Brazil's internal politics, China and other countries have been concerned by post-election violence after the closely fought 2022 Brazil general election. Given the continued poor state of Brazil's economy right now, should the international community be concerned about Brazil's stability?

Cristovam Buarque: We have to be concerned a bit everywhere in the world, and especially in Brazil we have concerns, democracy is very fragile everywhere, in Brazil perhaps more than in a lot of other countries, but there's no danger. Brazilian democracy is stable, at least for many years ahead.

Guancha: Recently there has been increased talk of decoupling and confrontation on the global stage. Key to this seems to be America's desire to see all countries adopt a more western model of democracy, of governance, while China believes that development should be or is the most important democratic right of the people. So what do you think of these narratives?

Cristovam Buarque: Thank you very much for this question. I'd like to talk a lot more about that. America is a case of success from the point of view of a rich country, a powerful country, but it's not from the point of view of sustainability, it's not from the point of view of inclusion of the whole population to its benefits. They have a lot of exclusion, especially of a racial orientation: black people have it worse than white people, although there are a lot of poorer white people today. It's a success from the point of view of the nation in the short term, in the past, but they have no reason to be an example to be followed forever by everyone. This is an arrogance, this is an error, a mistake to try to impose not only democracy but also the American way of life. The American way of life cannot be the way of life of humankind in the future, we need other ways to live instead.

In the case of democracy, it was a very important factor to America, to some other countries, but each country has to look for their way of democracy. I put it like that, because democracy in its essence is the way to govern with the people. It's not with the congress, with multiple parties, with elections, with electors as the king, not necessarily.

This is why I was criticized a lot in Brazil, because I wrote a book where I put the idea of the Chinese mode of democracy. People didn't like that in Brazil, many friends of mine were unhappy with this expression that I put there. But I use it, and I would say China has a mode of democracy, which is probably not the way Brazil would use. Brazil has to find a new way, but not necessarily the American or the French or the Japanese way, and they all have different modes of democracy anyways. America has to stop the idea that its democracy is the only way possible. We have other ways of democracy in the world, and China, I think, is trying to find its way.

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